Sid Roth Interview Session With Jonathan Bernis

SID: My guest will expose the single most dangerous heresy in Christianity today. It could cost you Heaven.

Is there a supernatural dimension, a world beyond the one we know? Is there life after death? Do angels exist? Can our dreams contain messages from Heaven? Can we tap into ancient secrets of the supernatural? Are healing miracles real? Sid Roth has spent over 35 years researching the strange world of the supernatural. Join Sid for this edition of It’s Supernatural.

SID: Hello, Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it's naturally supernatural. My guest, I've known for some 28 years and we've gone through a lot together. Jonathan Bernis. We went to China together, we went to St. Petersburg together and as a matter of fact, we're friends and we joke a lot. But we saw history being made in St. Petersburg, Russia. Both of us have been sharing the Good News with Jewish people for many years. And Jonathan heard a word from God to go to St. Petersburg, Russia. I went with him and we had evangelistic meetings, and I want you to describe what that first meeting was like. Describe that.

JONATHAN: Oh my goodness. Sid, you're bringing back such great memories. Well we, as you know, rented the largest concert hall in the city of St. Petersburg, almost 4000 seats, the Oktyabrsky Concert Hall. We had Coulsen Cothern [name]. We had other Messianic artists. Really, we had no idea what to expect. We didn't know if five people would show up or what. We did some advertising.

SID: This had never been done before. I mean, wide scale advertising for Jewish people to attend a concert, and how many showed?

JONATHAN: Well we had to close the doors about a half hour before the concert started because every seat was filled and we turned away hundreds each night. This went on night after night. And people told me there's a lot of anti-Semitism and feared Jewish people won't come. But Sid, they came. And what's amazing is they came knowing they were going to hear about Jesus. That's what's so supernatural about this whole thing.

SID: What's even more amazing to me was they didn't just come forward. They didn't just raise their hands. When the invitation was given they ran. Jonathan, I mean, I've never see that before.

JONATHAN: Now I know why they call them Russians, because the majority of the 4000 in that concert hall were Jewish and the majority came down front, many with tears in their eyes. And Sid, I saw this repeated for almost 10 years in the former Soviet Union until the revival waned. And it's no coincidence. The Bible very specifically talks about the Jews in the land of the north being the first to be restored back. "I'll bring you back from the north country." It's not

North Carolina. Sorry for those in Charlotte. It's not North America. It's north of Israel and that's the former Soviet Union. And so with this great Aliyah, almost a million, or over a million Russian-speaking Jews fulfilling Bible prophecy, going back to Israel, there was a parallel spiritual revival as well, spiritual awakening. And Sid, this is one of the clearest signs that we're in the last days and the near return of Jesus to this earth.

SID: You know, Rabbi Jonathan Bernis, just like myself, is Jewish. Both of his parents were Jewish. The only problem was he was raised in a reformed Jewish home. My orthodox Jewish father said, Reformed, that's not even Jewish. Then after I became a believer in Jesus, he said, you know, Reformed looks pretty good. Jonathan, as a young boy, you were invited to a Young Life meeting, and they had pretty girls, so you went. But I'm still surprised you went to a Christian meeting. Why did you?

JONATHAN: Well my parents were surprised, looking back also. And by the way when I became a believer, my mother went from Reformed to Conservative. Instead of coming to know the Lord she moved more into Judaism. Sid, I was brought up in a Jewish home, like you. And even though I was raised Reform, Jewish identity was important. I was born a Jew. I was taught I would die a Jew. And really, Jews can believe in just about everything or nothing. They can be atheist and still be Jewish. But there's one taboo that you and I both experienced growing up in Jewish homes, and that is you can't believe in Jesus. And so Jesus to me was their God. He was the God of the Christians. But through befriending an assistant wrestling coach who really did have something different that I recognized about him. He was always peaceful. He had joy, and I was just intrigued by his kindness to me. And when he invited me to this group, Young Life, I didn't connect it with the Gospel at all. I connected it with good looking girls that were going to this Tuesday night group where they got around and talked, and it just happened to be about the Bible. So I went. And really I wasn't that drawn into what was going on. I have to say this though, Sid, and I believe that the Word of God never returns void. I was intrigued by the person of Jesus. I was intrigued by the stories of this man who could walk on water, heal the sick, raise the dead. I thought, wow, this Christian God is a really good guy. He's really powerful.

SID: But Jonathan decides he wants to make a million dollars. He goes off to college. He gets involved in the fast life, in the drugs, dealing drugs and going to parties. The seed might have been planted, but that's about it. He's doing his own thing. And one of his druggie buddies all of a sudden gets in touch with him. And this girl looked like she wasn't going to make it. What happened, Jonathan?

JONATHAN: Well Sid, keep in mind now, I have the seed planted. But when anybody tried to share the Gospel with me my immediate response was, "I'm Jewish." And they always apologized, which I think is very sad, because many people, even people watching today that love the Lord have this misconception that it's good not share with Jewish people. Well fast forward now as you said to college, and this friend Susie is searching, as I am, but she gets really hooked on drugs. I watch her life spiral down. She drops out of school and she disappears from my life. And I felt bad for her, but I didn't want to watch her destroy her life. And she reappears in my life right at the end of my second year of school, and she looks changed. There is something different about her. She looked different. Her face was glowing. And Sid, this was supernatural. This program is about the supernatural. And when I saw her I knew something was different about her, and I asked her what happened, and she told me, and she told me how she was on the verge of suicide. That's how bad it had become. And on the verge suicide she had walked into a pool hall. And the owner of the pool hall had just become a born again Christian, and led her to the Lord, and she was completely delivered of drugs. She was on fire for the Lord. And that's supernatural. A girl who was on the verge of committing suicide, completely delivered of drugs and was found. She was lost, but she was found. And I found that incredibly intriguing. The problem is, I said, that's great for you, but it's not for me. And she made me her homework assignment. She called me everyday asking me about why I'm here.

SID: I'll tell you what. Hold that thought. We'll be right back. And you're going to find out, you think that's supernatural. Wait until you hear what happened to Jonathan. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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We’ll be right back to It’s Supernatural.

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We now return to It’s Supernatural.

SID: Hello, Sid Roth here with my friend, Rabbi Jonathan Bernis. And Jonathan, his God really was money and power. He's Jewish, so he's not going to believe in Jesus. But his friend Susie, who's a druggie, has an experience with the Lord. And she gets so clean, so set free, such a sparkle in her eye, and she keeps witnessing to Jonathan. Finally, to get her off his back, Jonathan goes to a Bible study. What happened there?

JONATHAN: Exactly. Well I walked in to the study, Sid. It's a long story, so we don't have time to go into it. But I drove through the pouring rain on my motorcycle to go to a study that I never wanted to go to, and that's the power of people praying. She had everyone praying for me, her Bible study, her church, and so on. I walk into this study and I'm soaking wet. They gave me some clothes to change into. And the minute I went downstairs where the study was I felt totally out of place. I just felt totally different than everybody else. I felt like they were staring at me. And I don't even remember what was taught. But at the end of the study the leader took me upstairs and he put a Bible in my lap. And I had never read the Bible. This is another misconception that many of you have, that are watching, that's wrong, that Jewish people know the Bible. We don't. And he began to show me about sin and separation from God. I didn't hear any voice, I didn't see any vision, but I had a supernatural experience.

SID: What was that?

JONATHAN: I sensed, for the first time in my life, the presence of God, a Holy God, and felt separated from that God. In the midst of His holiness I felt unclean. And I prayed a prayer that night, 31 years ago. I don't even remember the prayer, but asking Jesus to come into my life and change me. And I had this conflict, Sid, between my mind and my heart, which I can't even explain to this day. But I really didn't believe with my mind that what I was praying was of any value. But something in my heart was pulling me. I know 31 years ago that God was in that room tangibly. I went home. I decided to forget the whole thing. But within days, I had this brand new desire to read the Bible. I didn't know where to get a Bible. So finally I remembered that this Young Life friend had given me one four years earlier. I drove on my motorcycle a hundred miles back to my parents' house just to find this Bible, and a hundred miles back to my dorm room. And I began to devour, to consume the New Testament.

SID: Do you realize this Jewish man whose God is money and is into drugs, all of a sudden something supernatural happened. He drives 200 miles just to read a Bible. What did you find in that Bible that you didn't know?

JONATHAN: Sid, what I found was totally shocking, because on the very first page of

Matthew, and I was ready for this, Jesus Christ. He's the God of Christians. I shouldn't be doing this. And then I read the son of Abraham, the son of David. Now most people just skip over the lineage. But for me, this was absolutely life-changing to see Abraham, the father of the Jewish people, and David, one of the greatest heroes of the Jewish people, in the first verses of the New Testament, the book of the Christians. I didn't understand it. But I began to realize as I read on that this was the most Jewish book that anyone could read. It taught me that Jesus was Jewish, that his name was Yeshua, his Hebrew name, Yeshua, which means "salvation". I discovered that all of the first followers of Yeshua were all Jews who never converted to another religion, but understood that he was the Messiah promised in their prophets. It was life-changing, Sid. It was supernatural. And my life just began to change from that day on. Now what's even more amazing was going back to my own scriptures, the Tanakh, the Torah and prophets.

SID: Tell me a few things you saw that really, the light bulbs went on for the first time in your life.

JONATHAN: In the New Testament or going back?

SID: Going back.

JONATHAN: I'm going to my own scriptures, which I had never read before. I learned to read Hebrew from the time I was little. I was Bar Mitzvahed. But I never learned to understand what I was reading. And now I go back and I read the Torah, I read the prophets and I begin to discover prophecies. And you want to talk about supernatural. I'm talking about prophecies which in hundreds of years before Yeshua, Jesus was born, that revealed when he would be born, where he would be born, what he would accomplish, that he would be rejected. Let me give you a few examples.

SID: Please.

JONATHAN: Psalm 22: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" And you see in Psalm 22 a very specific, detailed description of a crucifixion: "My tongue cleaves to the roof of my mouth. All my bones are out of joint. Dogs have encircled me." In other words he's talking about have encircled me. "And they have pierced my hands and my feet." It's a perfect description of crucifixion. And by the way, Sid, and I talk about this in detail in my book, the ancient rabbis, and by ancient rabbis I mean rabbis that lived before the time of Jesus, understood that Psalm 22 was a Messianic psalm, believe it or not. And they labeled that Psalm, along with others, like Isaiah 53, the psalms of the Messiah ben Joseph, son of Joseph. Remember, Joseph in the Bible, he's rejected by his brothers. He is sold into slavery, he's imprisoned, he's rejected and then finally he's recognized by his brothers. So the rabbis understood that these prophecies like Psalm 22 were Messianic and yet they contradicted other prophecies that talked about a Messiah that would come and rule and reign in power. So thus, Messiah ben Joseph would actually die, according to Psalm 22, and then later be resurrected by the other Messiah, Messiah ben David, King Messiah, and they would rule and reign together.

SID: You know, the ancient rabbis almost had it right. Rather than two Messiahs, two appearances, what about one Messiah, two appearances?

JONATHAN: Exactly. And it's very important, I think, that Christians understand the Messianic prophecies and some of what rabbinic literature taught. Not only will it help them to share effectively with their Jewish friends and neighbors, but it will enhance their faith. It will build their faith. I'm telling you, Sid, it was life-transforming for me. And when people get a hold of these things, when Christians get a hold of this, it's like being born again, again.

SID: Let me tell you. My wife went to a Messianic Jewish congregation with me, and it was when I was involved in pioneering, when I was a brand new believer in the Messiah. And we had a Messianic Jewish rabbi that taught Yeshua out of the Old Testament. And as she saw things that very few gentile Christians ever see, as she saw these prophecies and these predictions about the Land of Israel, about the future of the Jewish people, about the Messiah, so graphic, just very briefly, tell a little about Isaiah 53.

JONATHAN: Well Sid, let me add to that. Not only did your rabbi teach out of the Old Testament, but all the first disciples taught out of the Old Testament and expounded on the scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. I tell Christians that and they're shocked. They didn't have the New Testament, Sid. They wrote the New Testament. So it's revealed, the whole New Testament is concealed in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New. Isaiah 53, another suffering servant passage, Messiah ben Joseph, understood by the rabbis to be Messianic, clearly prophesying hundreds of years before Jesus is ever born, that he would be despised, that he would be rejected, that we would esteem not, but that he would be stricken, smitten by God, but not for his own transgressions. That he would actually die, that he would be a sacrifice. But not for his own sins, but for the sins of Israel, and the world, hundreds of years before he was ever born. Talks about being crucified or dying between two evil-doers: two thieves; talks about being buried in the tomb of a rich man hundreds of years before he was ever born.

SID: Jonathan, I read right out of my Tanakh, my scriptures that I got from my Orthodox Jewish rabbi to my Orthodox Jewish father, Isaiah, Chapter 53, and my father said, "Stop. You're talking about Jesus." Dad, you were right. I was talking Jesus. I want to find out why and when miracles stopped in the first church. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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We'll be right back to It's Supernatural.

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We now return to It’s Supernatural.

SID: Hello, Sid Roth here with Rabbi Jonathan Bernis. And what I want to understand is, according to the Jewish historian, Neander, there were approximately a million Jewish believers in Jesus at the turn of the first century. But somehow something happened and these Jewish people weren't identified as Jewish believers any more, and it resulted in the church losing its ability to walk in large numbers of people in the miraculous. Jonathan, tell me that scenario.

JONATHAN: Well again as you said, the church, the first church, were all Jews. They never converted to Christianity. They lived as Jews. But of course in Acts, Chapter 10, the Gospel goes to Cornelius, Paul becomes the apostle to the gentles and the Gospel quickly spread in the gentile world. And sadly, by 135, you have writings like Justin Martyr writing against the Jewish believers and saying, "He who claims to be Jewish and Christian is neither Jew nor Christian." And sadly, the church begins—and there are reasons for this we don't have to go into, and I think it's important that Christians do study to understand this—begins to move away from their Jewish roots. And the second century all the way up to the culmination with the Nicene Council in 325 A.D., you have the church severing what's now the dominantly Gentile church, severing themselves from their Jewish roots. And when that happens, Sid, the power drains out of the church. This is turning your back on your father, I believe. I think that until this is restored we're not going to see the fullness of power coming into the church. And let me say it the other way. When the Jewish roots of the faith are restored, or the Hebraic roots, we're going to see an outpouring of the Spirit we haven't seen since the first century. It's coming.

SID: I believe that, and that's what I call the One New Man, when the middle wall comes down between Jew and gentile, to form one new humanity, which will result in the full dwelling place of God by His spirit. Now Jonathan has told me about a heresy that I understand, too, that so few understand. It's the difference between you being in the blessings of God or the curses of God. Tell me about this heresy.

JONATHAN: I'd have to set it up by saying this. Genesis 12, "I will bless those that bless the children of Abraham and curse the one that curses the children of Abraham," I believe is just as true and powerful, and real today as when it was written. And that's the danger here, because we can be under the blessing of God, based on how we treat the Jewish people, or the curse of God. And the heresy is called replacement theology, or Cessationism. And very simply again, in the beginning of the second century this erroneous teaching that the church has replaced Israel. In other words, the Jews killed Jesus. They were responsible for his death. They committed deicide, and now God is through with them, He's given up with them, they're under His curse. And so now the new people of God, the new Israel is the church. Now the truth is that Christians become spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham and receive all the blessings given to the Jewish people, or given to the children of Abraham. But they join; they're grafted into the natural olive tree, which is Israel. Replacement theology, most Christians don't even know the name, still has vestiges and there's residue that affects every Christian, and it cuts out the blessing of God.

SID: In Romans 11, that deals so clearly with it. Give me a couple of verses.

JONATHAN: Very simply, "Boast not against the natural branches," because if God cut them off, how much easier to cut you off. And if he can graft a wild olive branch, which is the Gentile believer, how much easier to re-graft back in the Jewish person and bring them to faith. So it's very clear. Paul says three times in Romans 11, God has not rejected Israel. It's so clear, Sid. And we have to come against this heresy if we want to see supernatural outpouring of God's spirit return to the church.

SID: Well I believe that it's time for the greatest favor of God to hit Bible believers. It's time to move from the curse to the blessing. And we have a mezuzah that we've designed for the people that we mentor. It's got millions of Jewish names that do not know the Messiah in this mezuzah. We're instructed in Scripture to put it on our door. And Jewish people kiss it when they enter their door or when they leave their door, and they pray for God's blessing over them when they're in their house and when they leave their house. How much greater blessing when we pray for the salvation of millions of Jewish people. Jonathan, I want you to agree in prayer with me, as we pray over this mezuzah, and I want you to agree in prayer with me as we pray that these millions of Jewish people come to know their Messiah, and you will walk under the blessings of Genesis 12:3, the favor of God. We agree in Yeshua's name that the spiritual scales will come off the eyes of Jewish people. We agree in Yeshua's name the spiritual scales will come off the eyes of Christians to be able to share the Good News with Jewish people. We agree in the name of Yeshua's name that there are modern day Paul the Apostles in these names that will lead the world in righteousness, and yea, once again, the Word of the Lord will go out from Zion. And I am so excited when these Jewish people become one with Gentile Christians and the middle wall of separation is finally coming down.

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SID: Next week on It’s Supernatural. Is it possible that there is an ancient mystery that holds the key to America's future? Could this same mystery be behind current events from 9/11 to our economic meltdown, to even the war in Iraq?

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